Talk:2504
October? I noticed lots of references to "October 2504" and I was wondering where that was coming from? StarCraft II is actually less specific than StarCraft I in reference to dates. It just uses military time (of day). (The branched structure probably makes using actual dates problematic for most missions anyway; at least that's how I figure why Blizzard didn't bother being more specific.) PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 14:12, August 7, 2010 (UTC) Here's a reference Hawki (I think) provided for Smash and Grab: Blizzard Entertainment. StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty. (Activision Blizzard). PC. Protoss research (in English). 2010. Only problem is, StarCraft II has less accurate timeline information than the original game. Most missions take place without timestamps, they don't have to take place in a certain order, there's little to no information on how much time takes place between missions, and some missions can be skipped. For now, for most missions (those that don't have a Stettman research log immediately afterward) shouldn't have anything more specific than 2504. We can put a note in this article that several of Stetmann's research logs take place in October, so logically the early part of the war had to encompass that period, but we don't know how long the war went. If more specific information comes to light (eg Stetmann's Final Log: Using Artifact on Char) then obviously the policy will be updated. I'm assuming the timeline information concerns the artifact. If it concerns protoss research points, then it's even less accurate, as you can pick those up in a lot of different missions; in essence, the player would be creating their own timeline. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 14:39, August 11, 2010 (UTC) I was hoping to get to '04 yesterday and address it then, but other edits came first. Anyway, in regards to October, there's three main pieces of evidence in WoL that give the month. The first is in the first cutscene, where Mengsk holds a press conference "commemerating the end of the Brood War." The story, it seems, begins on the same day the Brood War ends. From I, Mengsk, we know that Episode V begins in September, 2500. So while this doesn't give us a clear date of when BW ended in itself, we know the rough period of year.--Hawki 21:26, August 11, 2010 (UTC) Do we actually know that? I don't think we got anything more specific than years, especially due to mild conflicts with the official timeline. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 15:45, August 12, 2010 (UTC) The conflicts were driven by a retcon remember-it's a simple matter of applying the month figures. It's been established for ages that Tarsonis falls in Feb., as June is rendered impossible by WoW. And now, by WoL.--Hawki 21:15, August 14, 2010 (UTC) The second and most compelling sets of evidence are Stetmann's logs. The Raides retrive the zerg sample on October 6, 2500 and the protoss sample on October 7, 2500. Given that the first samples are collected in the first branching missions, this gives a rough point of time for the start of the campaign. And it matches up with the above piece of evidence. From here, we can gather that BW has ended by early October, 2500 and that SGW begins at roughly the same time.--Hawki 21:26, August 11, 2010 (UTC) That's more acceptable, yes. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 15:45, August 12, 2010 (UTC) The third piece of evidence is towards the end, in a piece of dialogue with Findlay (I think it's after Maw of the Void). He mentions how he's experienced real freedom "over the last few weeks." This is almost right at the end of the game chronologically, with the Char missions coming next (as the dvd more or less gives the complete order, we know that Maw leads into Char). As such, we know that the missions up to this point have occurred over October.--Hawki 21:26, August 11, 2010 (UTC) No, we don't. For starters, "few" is a vague term. It usually means 3-5, which could (and probably would) go into November. That only tells us that Wings of Liberty ended in 2504 and didn't fall into 2505. I don't think the DVD gives the "correct" order; there obviously has to be an order, since that's how DVDs work. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 15:45, August 12, 2010 (UTC) "Few" can go up to five, but if it did in a weeks sense, I doubt anyone would use "few weeks" rather than month. As for the DVD, it isn't just a compilation of cutscenes remember, but interlude and narrative based, with clear linkage and a 'true story' presented.--Hawki 21:15, August 14, 2010 (UTC) The Char missions themselves are an issue, as why they take place on the same day, the travel time involved isn't given via Maw. I would wager that they're still in October, because the key direct statement we have is that SCII takes place four years after BW-in essence, 2504, so it behoves us to keep HotS and LotV in it as well. This might correspond to one month per episode. Regardless, most, if not all of WoL can be placed.--Hawki 21:26, August 11, 2010 (UTC) That doesn't tell us anything about the month (since it could have taken place in November). It just sort of means late 2504. Other than the missions specifically linked to Stettman's logs, the most specific we can get is "late 2504" for other missions. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 15:45, August 12, 2010 (UTC) I'm willing to put "late" for the Char missions, though I think we're straying into dangerous territory. We're ignoring absolute dates and setting a possible precedent for the story going into 2505, which could prompt another timeline retcon. Also, for the timeline page, I don't think we should sum up SGW, as its order is pretty much at the player's disposal. I think we should have the start (Mar Sara), the given dates (Stetmann and Castanar) and the end run, which stems from Maw to All In.--Hawki 21:15, August 14, 2010 (UTC) We're not ignoring absolute dates; we're only given two, then given a very non-specific "weeks" piece of information. As for SGW, the order of required missions is fixed. (They're the three Mar Sara missions, Smash and Grab, The Dig, The Moebius Factor, Supernova, Maw of the Void and the Char missions, with the exception of the choice there.) Missions without dates are still occurring in that order, but they're not given dates (except one or two of them) because there's no date information for them. Not using specific dates that we don't have has no bearing on the expansions yet, as we don't have any timing information on them. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 21:35, August 14, 2010 (UTC) Except for month. It's a month that matches up with relative dating, it's a month that matches up with absolute dating. I'm not opposed to slotting in the compulsory missions into the timeline article, plus the two dates (three if you include Castanar) into an October slot, then "late" from then onward.--Hawki 21:44, August 14, 2010 (UTC) The month can match up relatively, but only at one specific period of time (when we're told about Mengks's coronation speech), so I'm leery of saying "October". Rather, it's pretty obvious (from the way the timeline would look) that some of those entries would be in October, some in November, and we're not really sure which is which. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 22:01, August 14, 2010 (UTC) I'd hardly call it "obvious" that some would be in November. The dates are early Oct., so it precludes Tychus's weeks statement from carrying into November. Char is the only timeframe that could fit into November. It's the only timeframe I'd say warrants "late" rather than "Oct" for its mission/char blurbs in regards to time. I personally doubt it's the case, but understand there's not enough evidence. Up to Maw however, I'd say there is. We know the start of the period, we know the end of the period and by default, most of WoL fits in-between.--Hawki 22:07, August 14, 2010 (UTC) 2507 and 2512? Those years appear on the timeline as non-created articles, yet they appear. What does happen in those years for them to be listed there? Omega20 17:38, August 31, 2010 (UTC) Armageddon is supposed to happen in 2512. That article should probably be recreated. I'm not sure about 2507, I will pull up the deleted file. PSH aka Kimera 757 (talk) ) 17:43, August 31, 2010 (UTC) I think I missed something, where did it say that Armaggedon happened in 2512? Ok, I see it now. Omega20 17:45, August 31, 2010 (UTC) Project Blackstone Short on time, but with the latest PB update, it's been established that the project occurs post-WoL, which would put it in 2505 at the earliest. Will need dates altered ASAP.--Hawki (talk) 22:17, April 11, 2013 (UTC) :Or only some of it does.--Hawki (talk) 22:26, April 11, 2013 (UTC) Stetmann's log dates "Zerg sample recovered by Raynor's Raiders, 6.10.2504" "Protoss "crystal" sample recovered by Raynor's Raiders, 10.7.2504." It seems as if the wiki is going by "DD/MM/YYYY" for the Zerg Sample, but is swapping it around to "MM/DD/YYYY" for the Protoss sample. Is there any reason why? There doesn't seem to be any apparent reason for Stetmann to change the way he organizes his dates from Little-endian to Middle-endian. Ignoring the fact that periods in dates are often used with Little-endian, either the samples were gained roughly four months apart or two months apart. I think the main reason why is that the article is trying to force the Zerg sample being discovered around the same time as the Protoss one. It doesn't need to be forced though. Stetmann has the Zerg observable sample as soon as Raynor can visit the lab with none of the research samples gained. You automatically start with 3 Zerg research points, and so, when that sample is obtained, it isn't directly connected to the research point related samples gained in Wings of Liberty. http://i.imgur.com/VnMRuva.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YOR4SFD.jpg http://i.imgur.com/uuTTg38.jpg Not to mention, the Protoss Research is optional on Monolyth, so there's no actual guarantee Raynor's Raiders actually obtained the Protoss Sample from Monolyth on 10.7.2504 or that he even pursued research at all. Some of the dates on other articles need to be changed due to this.--Shadow Archon (talk) 22:30, June 5, 2015 (UTC) :If I understand correctly, both are independently observable and aren't triggered by any actions within the game. :If so...well, there goes a lot of dates. I'll get to work on that.--Hawki (talk) 23:17, June 5, 2015 (UTC) ::Not completely. There's still a problem with the Protoss date, but the Protoss research is still dependent on gaining Protoss Research from a mission. ::The Zerg one is present from the get-go since you have three free Zerg research points in the beginning, so that date can't really be used for Wings of Liberty Events. The Raider's likely obtained it before the events of the game. ::The big problem here is that we are adding the "optional missions are optional tags" and just like with evolution missions, the Research system is optional as well. ::That's going to impact the stated Protoss date. ::If someone only gets the Protoss research sample from the Worldship, they could conclude that the Last Artifact Mission happened on 10.7.2504...but if someone gets the first sample on Monolyth, they can conclude that the first artifact mission happened on 10.7.2504... ::So, I think you can see the problem there. The dates are variable based on what you do and when you do it. ::I would suggest that given that evidence, the dates are likely Middle-Endian regardless of their period format. The Zerg sample would then be obtained in June of 2504, and the Protoss sample would be obtained in October of 2504. --Shadow Archon (talk) 23:48, June 5, 2015 (UTC) :::Okay, that helps things a bit. I don't have time to go through every article, but basically, this necessitates the correction of "October, 2500/2504" to either September/October, 2500 (where the Brood War has to end) and "late 2504," since we can no longer compress WoL's timeframe bar knowing that it has to end in December (which actually helps in a way - it means that the Raiders aren't undertaking a mission every day of the month, can factor in travel time, etc.) However, realistically, I'd say that the sample still has to come from Monlyth - there's no way for WoL to occur in near entirety prior to the worldship. That, and the DVD more or less establishes the correct order, and as you'd expect, the worldship takes place near the end of the game.--Hawki (talk) 00:30, June 6, 2015 (UTC) :::Well, at least we know that Wings of Liberty happens after June 10th. That's pretty concrete. :::As for the sample, it isn't about the order of the missions. You can play the Monlyth mission and deliberately avoid nabbing any of the Protoss relics, which will prevent the sample from appearing in the lab. You can avoid completing all of the optional Protoss research objectives until the Worldship mission since it is all optional. :::You can deliberately avoid nabbing all of the Protoss research. Even the Protoss Mini-Campaign is optional (which we don't have a note for I noticed), so you can skip getting any research from that too. :::I just checked from using the mission select menu from the "leaveyoursleep" code: At the Start:http://i.imgur.com/OQiy16w.jpg At the End: http://i.imgur.com/e2FWDNo.jpg :::Here's the Lab: http://i.imgur.com/hsONpv2.jpg And the empty Research list: http://i.imgur.com/ZXAMdKJ.jpg :::So, if you do get Protoss research on the Worldship as your first Protoss research gain, it will state the date from the first entry there, and you can immediately go to Char. That's the problem. :::Even factoring in the two week travel time to Char from Queen of Blades, that's roughly two to three months entirely spent on Char for the invasion. --Shadow Archon (talk) 01:38, June 6, 2015 (UTC) ::::There isn't a designation for the prophecy missions because they occur anyway - the only thing that varies is whether Raynor actually observes them, in which case the plot branch template is used. ::::Getting the artifact at the worldship doesn't necessarily mean two months on Char, as there's other missions that can be partaken in. But we're really splitting hairs at this point. The entire means of generating a faulty date means going out of one's way to not carry out certain missions/objectives. Similar to Warcraft III, there's the general understanding that pretty much everything that can happen (in terms of optional objectives) does happen, as in: *Tosh: The pre-SC2 viral campaign established that Tosh at least joined the Raiders. Nova's dialogue in HotS is also based on Tosh joining, fate aside. *Hanson: Project Blackstone establishes that she at least gets as far as Meinhoff in the colonist campaign. *Rebellion: The epilogue text of WoL heavily implies that the rebellion missions occur regardless of whether the player actually completed them. ::::It's further complicated that the 2 weeks feature is no longer necessarily valid, as the Hyperion pulls off a lot of feats (going to warp in atmosphere, tactical jumps, etc.) that QoB kind of contradicts (e.g. the hazards of quick jumps). Radio Liberty patched that up a bit granted, but anyway, endgame is that we know when the Brood War ends, and by proxy, when WoL has to begin. The date otherwise matches up with this.--Hawki (talk) 02:26, June 6, 2015 (UTC) :::::The Protoss missions actually vary in another way. The bonus optional objectives that Zeratul might go after are still optional. Even the Archive in the last mission that takes place in a vision in the Overmind's head that Zeratul has no impact on is optional/variable. :::::You can go directly from the Worldship to the last mission in the game, forgoing all other possible missions though. Which would lock down the time there for Char... Avoiding all the special objectives isn't that hard actually and isn't going out of the way depending upon the difficulty. :::::If we are assuming that optional objectives like these definitively happen then, along with supplementary evidence supporting some decisions, why are we keeping optional tags for the entire branches of missions at all? Why not the specific missions that are iffy? :::::Eh, there's a difference between Warp Jumps and Sub-Warp Jumps. Long-range is always called "Warp Jumps", which takes planning, while the relatively short-range jumps are called Sub-Warp Jumps here and there. The Norad 2 pulled off a jump in seconds (specified as Sub-Warp) just like the Hyperion does at Mar Sara in StarCraft 2. That completely explains the issue right there, so I don't see it as a real problem in terms of contradiction. :::::Flashpoint even has the Hyperion pulling of the first extremely short jump (The Hyperion in front of Dominion Fleet, jumping just to the other side of them, and gunning the engines to escape) given the dialogue warning of how dangerous the "stunt" is, (Swann mentions Horner could stall the engines doing it) and the closest thing to this later in the lore is the Hyperion in HotS pulling off the named tactical jumps. I'm assuming tactical jumps aren't even a thing until after Flashpoint given that, especially since all BCs in Legacy of the Void now can do it. :::::As for the incapability of warping into an atmosphere...*Checks Article* that's not what Liberty's Crusade states: :::::"“This”—Duke pointed at the screen—“is the work of an alien race, the Protoss. From what I’m being told, they warped in from nowhere, closer to the planet than we would ever attempt." :::::It's not about Warping in or out of an atmosphere. It's about warping too close to the planet. The Hyperion pulling of the jump in Mar Sara's Atmosphere, or Raynor's Dropship pulling off a jump in Phaeton's Atmosphere doesn't contradict that. These ships never warp into a planet's atmosphere, so there's no conflicting canon. :::::As for the whole Brood War dates, yeah. The gist of when Brood War occurs is just fine. I haven o problem with that. --Shadow Archon (talk) 06:01, June 7, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I'd still argue that jumping away from a planet in atmosphere is iffy - if there's a limit to getting close to a planet out of warp, I'd think that warping out is a similar issue. That, and while I like WoL and HotS, both moments feel like "rules of cool" for the warping out moments (Star Trek Into Darkness is another example - beautiful scene as the Enterprise comes out of the sea, makes no sense as to why it's there and not in orbit. Granted, I actually like STID also). ::::::Concerning the optional missions, there was actually a discussion awhile back. I argued that the templates should be removed due to external sources. However, they were kept because a) elements of the missions aren't corroberated (e.g. Blackstone only goes as far as Meinhoff for Hanson's story), and b) it's more of a game guide, specifying that people playing the game aren't automatically going to get the material unless they spend time on the missions. I can get behind that personally, and I don't think it's much of an issue - again, Blizz's stance on canon is more or less that "everything that can happen, does happen (this arguably goes as far back as WC2), and most people seem to agree.--Hawki (talk) 06:59, June 7, 2015 (UTC) ::::::I'll counter that argument. The reasoning that you are seemingly using is that the Liberty's Crusade statement implies that "Warping inside an atmosphere is beyond the Terrans' ability." ::::::That's not what it's saying. It's just saying Protoss warp-in way too close to a planet than Terran ships can. It's not mentioning a Warp-out, but a Warp-In, which do have differences. The big issue of that is the accuracy of where they can Warp-In somewhere with long jumps. Remember, ships can impact planets in Warp Space, so if they hit the planet from trying to warp-in too close, they will kill everyone on the ship. ::::::It has nothing to do with the ships incapable of opening a warp rift too close to a planet (Scenes from all three SC2s show that:Hyperion (WoL), Dropship (HotS), and Tactical Jumps In-game (LotV)). The Protoss are just more accurate with their Warp technology in how they can Warp close to a planet. ::::::Warping away from a planet is not an issue since there is no risk from the ship impacting the planet it is jumping from. ::::::Isn't reasoning (That is simple and not meticulously researched) that has the canon be consistent with itself inherently better than reasoning that creates a contradiction? From the evidence alone, I don't see an apparent contradiction. I only see a contradiction from your different interpretation of the evidence. ::::::As for the optional thing, that makes a lot of sense. It prevents people from wondering "Why didn't this happen for me?" I'm fine with it then. ::::::I do still think that given what enables the research log fro the Protoss samples, we definitely can't say for sure what planet the Raiders get the Protoss research sample from exactly. In fact, if Raynor gets Protoss research point from the Ihan Crystal first, Raynor actually isn't even actually involved with getting the sample. He'll activate the Ihan crystal when the sample isn't there, and wake up from the memory hours later with the sample already installed. ::::::Meaning we have no clue which planet the Raider's acquired it from. While it's a bit of speculation, you could arguably say that, lore-wise, it was obtained completely separate to any of the optional research objectives in the game because of that, and that "gameplay/story segregation" is the only reason the research log changes when you get additional research points. ::::::I mean, Stetmann's research logs are directly based on the ever-evolving samples rather than any of the actual research samples you acquire in any of the missions. There's no reason for the samples to only grow when research progress on dozens of unrelated other things are made. ::::::The other research samples include several unrelated physical specimens, unrelated physical artifacts, Protoss/Zerg Data, and not to mention the biggest head-scratcher, whatever Zeratul does in the Protoss mini-campaign that Stetmann has no connection/access to whatsoever. (And the mini-campaign itself gives you a huge butt-load of research points if you do all of them as soon as you can...)--Shadow Archon (talk) 08:38, June 7, 2015 (UTC) Nova The battle.net summary of the Nova ARG gives on Nova's profile that she had an unauthorized Solo Operation in this year, I feel that should be noted. 17:18, April 1, 2016 (UTC) :Given the date and the events surrounding it, it's heavily implied that operation was her appearance in the covert arc from Wings of Liberty. That does open up the issue of whether we want to list the "optional" missions from wings (since later games confirm talk about them), since currently the timeline only lists the missions you have to do. Subsourian (talk) 17:33, April 1, 2016 (UTC)